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Firlefanz Profile
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Lady of the Land

Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 6984
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Critting - and reactions to it


Critting has become a large part of my life recently - no wonder, since I'm editing an anthology and participating in another group project.

Now, it's getting easier for me to actually put in comments and point out things that I feel should be changed, even though I'm still afraid of hurting someone's feelings. Today, however, I had all major suggestions ignored. In effect, the author only made cosmetic changes in his story, but didn't deal with the big problems.

I'm at a loss. How can an author ignore such feedback? What can I do to make him take notice?

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- Firlefanz

Writing: "Kiera und der Gauklerjunge" - novel


4/18/2007, 4:08 pm Link to this post Email Firlefanz   PM Firlefanz Blog
 
Loud G Profile
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Grand Master

Registered: 01-2005
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 492
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


It depends on how many crits the author got and it also depends on the personality of the author.

If most crits said: "It was good" or "I liked it" and yours was the only one to go into depth, then perhaps the author thought it the aberation.

However, it you were the only critter and the author just threw out all of your suggestions it is probably a case where the author felt "you didn't understand the depth and genius" of his story. Maybe he disagreed with you, I don't know.

I do know that to totally throw away crit input is a sure way to have a story flounder. I don't agree with my writing proffessor half the time, but when he makes a comment about my work, I try to annalyse 'why' he said that. If I feel it is an opinion of style on his part, I am more apt to ignore the comment in the rewrite.

The last option is that the author is just lazy. I can understand this. You love your manuscript and someone tells you there is a huge plot hole and a bunch of little gramatical mistakes. Which to fix? The grammar, duh! emoticon

It is much easier than doing a complete rewrite, and if the grammar is perfect no one will notice the plot hole. . . .right? . . . guys? emoticon

---
Writing: Eriadhin

4/18/2007, 8:30 pm Link to this post Email Loud G   PM Loud G AIM Blog
 
David Meadows Profile
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Squire

Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 693
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


If somebody points out mangled grammar, stupid descriptions, weak dialogue, etc., then I'm very grateful and will do my best to fix it.

If somebody asks for wholesale changes to a story structure -- for example, a characterisation that "doesn't work" and could be changed, a "better" motivation for a character, a different kind of ending -- then I'll probably (probably)ignore it. For the simple reason that whatever they are suggestions is no longer the story I wanted to tell. It may be a better story, but that's not the point -- it's not my story.

Which I'll admit is pretty arrogant, but the only reason I write is because I want to tell stories my way, not somebody else's way, and if I give that up then I might as well not bother emoticon

For the same reason, I'm very rarely going to give somebody a crit which suggests changing a major detail -- I'm being asked to crit *that* story, not replace it with a variant story of my own. Unless the author made it explicit that he didn't like the story he had written: "I know the ending is weak but I couldn't think of a better scene".



---
"Musica innata est quaedam communis secundam seipsam delectatio"
-- John the Scot, De Divisione Naturae
4/19/2007, 11:02 am Link to this post Email David Meadows   PM David Meadows
 
Firlefanz Profile
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Lady of the Land

Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 6984
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


David, I understand your points, and I think I wasn't explicit enough.

The problems in this story were: Paragraphs of glaring infodumping, repeated insertion of long stream-of-consciousness type of ramblings in the middle of highly charged scenes, and short switches to the PoV of supporting characters (which I believe could be easily avoided, but I also know that others may not mind those as much as I do).

I didn't call for a different ending, for a change in character or a different motivation. I still believe that what I pointed out hurts the story in terms of flow and dramatic arches.

Ah, well.

---
- Firlefanz

Writing: "Kiera und der Gauklerjunge" - novel


4/19/2007, 2:00 pm Link to this post Email Firlefanz   PM Firlefanz Blog
 
David Meadows Profile
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Squire

Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 693
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


I should have realised what you meant, because I know you and your work emoticon (And yes, I would pay attention to that kind of critique.).

So... I don't know the answer to your question emoticon



---
"Musica innata est quaedam communis secundam seipsam delectatio"
-- John the Scot, De Divisione Naturae
4/19/2007, 6:05 pm Link to this post Email David Meadows   PM David Meadows
 
Firlefanz Profile
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Lady of the Land

Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 6984
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


I suppose I can only wait and see. emoticon

---
- Firlefanz

Writing: "Kiera und der Gauklerjunge" - novel


4/19/2007, 6:13 pm Link to this post Email Firlefanz   PM Firlefanz Blog
 
Reythia Profile
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Knight of Honor

Registered: 11-2005
Posts: 1883
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


Man, that's frustrating Firlefanz!

I do a lot of critiquing as well and find that most of the time, people are grateful for it. But sometimes... well, let's just say that at one point, I got a rather nasty email response from a writer which I do not believe I deserved.

There just seem to be some people who flat out don't deserve others taking the time to read and seriously crit their work -- the rude girl I mentioned and the one you mentioned here are just two examples. I don't understand it, frankly. I mean, I understand the initial feeling of "you didn't understand the depth and genius of my story" the FIRST time an author reads a crit of his story. In fact, I find that I usually have this reaction the first time I read over a crit of my own work. But generally, when I read it again (after a few hours/days have passed!), I have a more balanced opinion. Maybe I still don't agree with everything the critiquer has said, but there's usually good reason for most of it. Maybe the critiquer's solutions (if given) aren't the best, but usually it's a sign that SOMETHING needs to be fixed about that issue!

I guess my point is that there's not much you can to do MAKE another writer pay attention to your crits. In fact, if you find that this is typical behavior for this author, I'd stop critiquing his stuff. What's the point? And if he asks why, tell him the truth: because he wasn't taking your advice into account. If that doesn't shake him up then nothing will -- and it's his writing, not yours, that will suffer for it.

---
  -- YAR!
4/24/2007, 10:00 pm Link to this post Email Reythia   PM Reythia AIM MSN
 
Corvus Profile
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Grand Master

Registered: 12-2003
Posts: 300
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


David's first reply reminds me of the conversation you and I had, Firle, about that very thing -- critters/editors trying to rewrite our works rather than improve what we have. I wonder where the fine line is between them?
4/25/2007, 2:11 am Link to this post Email Corvus   PM Corvus
 
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Lady of the Land

Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 6984
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


I bet that's a difficult line, and I'm sure I'm not always on the right side of it.

I know that I would like expressions changed often, but that's mostly my personal taste. So, I don't suggest anything unless my version might be clearer or more precise. Even then, they are usually suggestions.

I believe I can see where a story is flawed, though, especially where flow and arcs of tension are concerned. It's noticable while reading - and with this one I got a little exasperated at having to read ramblings and descriptions while the action was put on hold in mid-scene.

Anyway, I believe that once an editor can recognize that line well, he or she will be a darn good editor.

---
- Firlefanz

Writing: "Kiera und der Gauklerjunge" - novel


4/25/2007, 6:36 am Link to this post Email Firlefanz   PM Firlefanz Blog
 
JessieLong Profile
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Master

Registered: 01-2004
Posts: 120
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


There are two major kinds of authors.

There are those who ignore everything in the crits what doesn't suits their needs,fail to see the big picture, heavy and often miss the whole point of critting and end up fixing minor things no one actually cares about.

Interesting, these authors end up published, quite often and quite successfully.

And then, there's the kind who listens to the crits, tries to satisfy every bit of it, bleeds his heart by changing every sacred word and plot point he considers holy. They never feel they are good enough being published, and they scarcely manage to actually send out submissions.

So...

---
Reading: Mostly comic books...
Writing : Electric Ladythief
Backburner: Scion and Ratface; The Rose and the Sword (books); Seekers (comic book series)
4/25/2007, 10:40 am Link to this post Email JessieLong   PM JessieLong
 
David Meadows Profile
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Squire

Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 693
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


After having his first few stories published, Isaac Asimov was faced (for the first time) with an editor who returned a manuscript with a request for significant changes. Asimov made the changes, reluctantly, and the story was eventually published. But Asimov was never happy with the result and vowed that he would never again rewrite at an editor's request -- he would just bin a story if he couldn't sell it without rewriting it.

Of course, he was in the happy position that he was selling almost 100% of his stories and could afford to be a bit arrogant emoticon

But if you don't need to sell a particular story -- either because you're as prolific and successful as Asimov or because you're a semi-pro or hobby writer who doesn't write to pay the bills -- then why would you willingly mutilate your "baby" to suit somebody else's ideas?

(Not saying that's a good attitude, just offering it as a possible attitude.)



---
Deep Purple live in Newcastle 21/4/07 (Review)
4/25/2007, 11:01 am Link to this post Email David Meadows   PM David Meadows
 
Reythia Profile
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Knight of Honor

Registered: 11-2005
Posts: 1883
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


Yeah, I tend to out my foot down on most of the "change this major plot point" critiques as well. Like Meadows said earlier, it's MY story, not my reviewers, and since I'm not writing for money, I'm not about to make it into something that I don't like.

Then again, there have been a few occasions where someone suggests a major change that, upon reflection, I agree WOULD make my story better. I've revised my story appropriately before and been more satisfied with the results, even if I hadn't been precisely DISsatisfied with it before.

So when I critique others' work, I DO tend to point out some things I see as major flaws -- especially if they're logical flaws which really pull me out of my "suspension of disbelief" and ruin that section of the story for me. I don't expect the author to agree with every crit I make, but I hope that he'll look at all of the places critically and decide which he agrees with me on, and change those accordingly.

---
  -- YAR!
4/25/2007, 1:52 pm Link to this post Email Reythia   PM Reythia AIM MSN
 
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Initiate

Registered: 08-2005
Posts: 10
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


The only time I took issue with a crit was from a person who insisted one of my main characters was boring and unneeded. EVERYONE else (20 or so readers) - including me - loved the character so it stayed. emoticon



---
"A real friend is one who walks in when the rest of the world walks out."

Walter Winchell
5/7/2007, 1:48 am Link to this post PM Spycedchai
 
Firlefanz Profile
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Lady of the Land

Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 6984
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


Spyced - that happens, I guess. Even so, with everyone else liking the character, it's a good thing you kept him (or her?).

  emoticon

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- Firlefanz

Writing: "Kiera und der Gauklerjunge" - novel


5/7/2007, 3:33 pm Link to this post Email Firlefanz   PM Firlefanz Blog
 
Firlefanz Profile
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Lady of the Land

Registered: 05-2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 6984
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


The editor has rejected the particular story I mentioned at the start of the thread.

I feel ... uneasy. On the one hand, it's good to know that I wasn't off with my comments, on the other hand I now wish I had been able to do more for the author and story.

---
- Firlefanz


6/27/2007, 8:56 pm Link to this post Email Firlefanz   PM Firlefanz Blog
 
Reythia Profile
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Knight of Honor

Registered: 11-2005
Posts: 1883
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


I can understand that mixed feeling, Firle. But there really wasn't much more you could do. People have free will, which means they have the right to choose poorly... and pay the consequences. You can't blame yourself everytime someone turns down your help -- it's their fault, not yours. All you can do is offer your help again the next time and hope that they've learned enough to take it.

---
  -- YAR!
6/27/2007, 9:08 pm Link to this post Email Reythia   PM Reythia AIM MSN
 
Corvus Profile
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Grand Master

Registered: 12-2003
Posts: 300
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


The guilt you feel means your desire to help other writers is genuine. That means you're a valuable and important person. Take it as a compliment.
6/28/2007, 2:51 am Link to this post Email Corvus   PM Corvus
 
Michael Ehart Profile
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Initiate

Registered: 07-2007
Location: Washington State, USA
Posts: 5
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Re: Critting - and reactions to it


I belong to two crit groups, one online and one live. The live group is made up of mostly Clarion West alumni and now facilitators, all of whom have a strong publication history. If they say something doesn't work, then chances are it doesn't. Now if just one out of a half-dozen doesn't like something, then it gets less scrutiny than otherwise.
As for re-writes, I am good with most, if the editor requests, because they usually have a good idea of what works for them. I think I might be unusual in that the story almost never is "my baby"-- I was a newspaper reporter for a while and after a bit of that a story is just some words you thought up.
I'm not Asimov; while I write as well as I am able and take pride in my product, I don't imagine that every paragraph is dripping with literary brilliance, set down for the ages. I write stories to entertain, and to, simply put, tell a story. Binning that story would just mean that no one ever read it, in which case I might as well have never written it.
7/29/2007, 2:57 am Link to this post Email Michael Ehart   PM Michael Ehart
 


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