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Squire

Registered: 09-2003
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The Pre-emptive Paladin


This came from a discussion on another forum about the D&D "Paladin" class.

For those who don't know -- a Paladin in a the Dungeon's & Dragons game is a "holy warrior" with god-given magical gifts to help him fight Evil. He has to act within a strict moral code in order to keep those gifts (for what his god gives him, his god can take away). The archetypeal Paladin is a virtuous knight such as Gawain or Galahad, of course.

One of a Paladin's powers is an unfailing "Detect Evil" ability. The problem is, as soon as you start analysing this logically, you run into all sorts of problems. The first of which is, what exactly *is* evil? And if the Paladin has a holy mandate to destroy all evil... won't that produce some very sticky situations, particularly in how his non-Paladin friends view his actions. Of course, his comrades, patrons, etc., will all be "good" (he's not allowed to associate with anybody bad, after all). But he is the only one of them who can *know* evil when he sees it, and they might not agree with his fanatical definitions.

So I came up with the following hypothetical problem:

Imagine a person who is quite capable of killing innocents but hasn't *yet*. Is he going to show up on a Paladin's "Detect Evil" because the capability
for evil is there even though he hasn't yet done it and may never do it? Maybe he fantasises about rape and torture but is too much of a coward to ever do it. Does Detect Evil discriminate between "thought crime" and actual crime?

Now here is the dilemma:

If the "thought crime" perpetrator does test positive on Detect Evil, should the Paladin pre-emptively kill him, before he has the chance to committing any evil deeds? Do Paladins believe in "innocent until proven guilty"? Of course, showing up positive on Detect Evil probably counts as proof to a Palaldin. But if he's the only one who can Detect Evil, how is he going to justify his acts to society? Would we in fact see Paladins forced to become fugitive vigilantees because nobody else can stomach their methods? (The archetype has changed from Galahad to Batman...)

If a man hasn't *yet* acted on his evil thoughts, but *might* some day, should the Paladin kill him? For example, a man who thinks "I'd love to torture
some peasants but the king doesn't approve and I like this cushy life as his top adviser, so I'll abstain". Is this person evil? Because as soon as his
circumstances change to allow it he'll be out there torturing with the best of them. Will he only change to "evil" after he completes his first torture, even though the intent (though not the opportunity) has been there his entire adult life?

Hmmm. I don't know if there is any point to this line of thought. I just found it interesting to prod at the implicit assumptions of certain types of heroic fantasy and see if any kind of meaningful plot would emerge...



Sir Harold knelt before the throne. "Sire, I bring news of my successful campaign against the Northern Trolls."

"Speak, Noble Knight," commanded the King.

As Harold began his tale, he became aware of a new presence in the room. Somebody nearby was radiating an aura of pure evil! He raised his head and his eye fixed on the smirking face of Chancellor Vimmit. Quick as a flash, Harold rose, drew his sword, and decapitated the man in a single motion. "Suffer not the Evil one to live!" he intoned.

King Olaf was aghast. "You fool, he was my most valued adviser!"

"Sire," cried Harold in confusion, "his thoughts were evil!"

"What are you talking about? He's never done an evil act in his life. He doesn't have the guts for it."

"The guts, no. But he was thinking about it!"

Olaf raged. "He is vital to the kingdom! And I don't care if he thinks about eating babies, as long as--"

But he never finished the sentence. His words damned him, as Harold realised that the king was willing to overlook the presence of evil if that evil was convenient. Harold's blade fell on the next of his former king...




Last edited by David Meadows, 12/11/2006, 10:33 pm


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Blitzen Profile
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


I think Harold was, em, insane. Surely his gods would have revoked his powers for that.

Out of curiousity, have you read the Paksenarrion trilogy, staring with Sheepfarmer's daughter? Thats a good book about paladins, though I'm sure its out of some game world. Too much like D & D to be original.

I personally think its more than thought or deed, than someone can commit rape or murder and not be evil; but that's just my take on it.

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Grand Master

Registered: 01-2005
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


One quick note.

It would be likely that the pre-emptive paladin would say that is was better that the possibly evil person died with a clean conscious than allowing the person to live intil they commit the evil act.
Better to die innocent, thus securing salvation instead of waiting until condemnation was upon them.



Very interesting predicament. I think Harold's story could be an extremely interesting one, very sad, but compelling

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Journeyman

Registered: 12-2005
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


I've had a thought that could stop this if you'd like to hear it.

Perhaps when someone devotes themselves to an evil god there is an "aura" around them. The Paladin can sense this taint and not the action they can sense.

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Grand Master

Registered: 12-2003
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


The problem here is that D&D alignments work with good and evil as absolutes, not relatives. Good and evil are actual, defined forces.

Also, D&D alignment is based on what you do, not what you think. Consider the dilemma of the angry, hateful-minded farmer who never harms anyone but harbors spiteful thoughts of murder, sitting in a bar next to Joe Paladin. Our farmer -- let's call him Bob -- has never committed an evil act, but his thoughts are dark. What does Joe sense? Like it or not, Joe does not detect evil from Bob. Until Bob commits an evil act, he does not register. The "pre-emptive paladin" bit falls apart because of the absolute and well-defined.

If you wish to move this away from Dungeons & Dragons, however, into a fantasy world where good and evil are more relative and what you think is just as important as, or more important than, what you do... then you might have something to explore.
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


I would think the "detect evil" thing is more like "detect creatures of evil" than referring to people who might have impure thoughts.

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David Meadows Profile
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


Blitzen:
quote:

I think Harold was, em, insane.


Yes, I thought I had covered that with "fanatical holy warrior" emoticon

quote:

Surely his gods would have revoked his powers for that.


He's doing exactly what his god requires of him -- destroying evil. Ok, he's not going about it in a very clever way (but he's prohibited from using trickery, etc.).

I've never even heard of the Paksenarrion trilogy. Is it worth reading (I mean, a good story, not just as an example of Paladins)?

Corvus:
quote:

D&D alignment is based on what you do, not what you think. ... Until Bob commits an evil act, he does not register.


That's obviously the "easy" definition of "Detect Evil".

But don't forget, the Paladin is given his mission by his god and a mandate (even a requirement) to destroy evil and protect the innocent. The god knows that farmer Bob hasn't committed a murder yet, but tonight he's going to deliberately drive a pitchfork through his neighbour (how can he be sure? Duh - he's a god!).

Now this "good" god has two choices. Give his Paladins the power to see Bob as evil tomorrow, after the neighbour is dead. Or give his Paladins the power to see Bob as evil now, thus saving the life of the innocent neighbour.

Again, this is all hypothetical, and it is entirely the writer's choice of how he makes the Paladin's powers work. But why take the easy option when there might be a good story in the difficult one? emoticon

Jessie:
quote:

I would think the "detect evil" thing is more like "detect creatures of evil" than referring to people who might have impure thoughts.


That makes a lot of sense, but raises a whole different set of theological problems.

Let's assume an animal or an animal-like fantasy monster isn't "evil" because it only kills to survive. To be evil you need sentience. So, what are we left with as "evil creatures"? Orcs? Ok, pretty evil by most definitions. They make a big ping on the Paladin's radar sense and he can kill them all with impunity.

Now what exactly is the difference between an evil Orc and an evil Human, in practical terms? That's tricky...

And if you're tarring an entire species as evil... Orc children? Born evil... or only evil after they murder their first Human? Inevitably evil? Can they be taught otherwise? (Going off on a tanget -- would a nature vs. nurture story involving exchanged Human and Orc children have any mileage in it?)



Last edited by David Meadows, 12/12/2006, 11:22 am


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JessieLong Profile
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Master

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


Okay, I need to refine that... "detect creatures which serve evil". And yes, zombies who eat human brains for sheer hunger are included in that category.

Anyway. Those kind of hero "attributes" are plot elements. "Hey, how could our heroes realize that the priest is the devil in disguise? I know! The paladin can DETECT EVIL!" It's kind of like the old mage who could solve a quest with a twitch of his finger but instead "helps" the party with mysterious and twisted riddle-laden messages. Or like the telepath who can mindscan anyone, yet ends up hit by the head by the villain anyway. Plot elements. I use them. Nuff said.

p.s. Who is Nuff, anyway?

Last edited by JessieLong, 12/12/2006, 3:07 pm


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David Meadows Profile
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


John Nuff, a well-known critic who often works in partnership with the equally famous Irving Millions (You know... "Loved by millions!" ). Togther they form part of the mysterious THEY, who seem to know everything ("They say that..."). Nuff said emoticon


Fair point about the Detect Evil being just another magical plot device, used to get heroes into/out of various situations. I'm just intrigued about how it could be differently. Kind of like the Star Trek transporter: just a convenient plot device... until it goes wrong, then it becomes the plot.

So if "Detect Evil" was to be the focus of a story, rather than just one character's taken-for-granted ability... actually, I'm having some specific ideas which maybe I won't go into in an open forum emoticon



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Registered: 05-2003
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


*jumps in to point out there actually is a restricted forum to discuss such work on this board*

  emoticon

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


The first Deeds of Paksenarrion (by Elizabeth Moon) is an excellent self contained novel about a girl who runs away from the farm and becomes a mercenary. Its one of my favourite books, and is called Sheepfarmer's Daughter.

The first sequel is okay. The second sequel is about two much like an RPG. But its in the second and thirtd books she becomes a paladin.

Definately get the first book from your library or something.

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


quote:

Blitzen wrote:

The first Deeds of Paksenarrion (by Elizabeth Moon) is an excellent self contained novel about a girl who runs away from the farm and becomes a mercenary. Its one of my favourite books, and is called Sheepfarmer's Daughter.



I just read Sheepfarmer's Daughter a few months ago. I was impressed -- in a negative way -- with the way Moon dragged out her plot to fill an entire novel of that length, when the tale up to the book's conclusion could have been told in about a third of the space, leaving room for the real plot of Paks becoming a paladin and what she does next.




Last edited by Corvus, 12/13/2006, 3:43 pm
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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


It is a trilogy.

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


Another thing to consider is what is the amount of possible evil will get you killed? If any bit of evil will be picked up, then he will kill 95% of the people he meets. If only the purest evil is picked up then some people could tourture someone and not get killed.

An interesting way to look at it is for a paladin to sense evil, but not know from who or what. In a series by Dean Koontz (Odd Thomas, Forever Odd, and Brother Odd) A guy can see dead people. He also sees spirits that gather where realy violent acts are about to happen. He doesn't know what will happen, but he still tries to stop it. Detect Evil could be an unreliable skill that causes as much trouble as it stops.

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


Go watch Minority Report. There's an actual scene devoted entirely to the concept of whether or not it's right (legally) to arrest and punish people for what they WERE GOING to do but couldn't because they were arrested.

Now personally I despise the concept of thought police and would consider a paladin acting on this "detect evil" of yours to be guilty of first-degree murder. Though as someone pointed out, Dungeons and Dragons is not the real world. Good and Evil are absolute forces with their own gods and all that.

A society has the right to establish laws to protect itself. But the idea of punishing people for what they MIGHT do or what they THINK are simply absurd to me. Though in this day and age we are moving in that general direction. Everything is about "reforming" criminals and showing them the right way to think and behave.

Of course I'm the type who considers thoughts and words completely meaningless. You can only judge someone on their actions, not their thoughts and words.

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


I think that as a story character, a completely fanatical holy warrior is going to have a short life if he tries to interact with anyone other than other like-minded paladins. My brother has played this typed of character in RPGs and the rest of us are usually ready to lynch him by the time the first encounter is over. emoticon

Sherry

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


Wow, David. That piece about Harold had me hooked.

To me, it would seem the detect evil ability would be similar to our other five senses, in that there's several degrees of variation, as opposed to a light bulb flashing on or off.

I'd also expect paladins to practice a degree of descretion in their work. Before acting, they'd make a judgement on each individual, taking in to account everything they knew about the person.

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Re: The Pre-emptive Paladin


quote:

David Meadows wrote:

If the "thought crime" perpetrator does test positive on Detect Evil, should the Paladin pre-emptively kill him, before he has the chance to committing any evil deeds? Do Paladins believe in "innocent until proven guilty"? Of course, showing up positive on Detect Evil probably counts as proof to a Palaldin. But if he's the only one who can Detect Evil, how is he going to justify his acts to society? Would we in fact see Paladins forced to become fugitive vigilantees because nobody else can stomach their methods?

If a man hasn't *yet* acted on his evil thoughts, but *might* some day, should the Paladin kill him?



Paladin's are by default "Lawful Good" so I don't think that they would be going lopping off "thought crime perpetrator's" heads, but they'd definitely keep an eye on the suspected evil person. Interesting storyline though. I think the paladin in the story relfects a more chaotic neutral personality. ( a bit loco)

Cool runboard you got here by the way. Its on runsearch weekly for this week. Got my vote.

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